tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post4404978642250215880..comments2023-10-26T05:56:21.000-04:00Comments on Fire And Grace - David Johndrow: It's No Secret, Some Days I Hate ChristianityDavid-FireAndGracehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13540931140500045826noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-71636184136545449552010-03-15T09:48:22.624-04:002010-03-15T09:48:22.624-04:00David,
"-1 What is the abject lack of evidenc...David,<br />"-1 What is the abject lack of evidence for Jesus having been a real person. It was recorded by the apostles, and also by Josephas. The Bible has many historical passages (which there was a link to) that were found to be similar, and authentic in many different manuscripts."<br /><br />It's just that - a lack of evidence. None of the gospels were written by eye witnesses (not that eye witness testimony is that great to begin with) and no contemporary historian writes a single word about Jesus. The writings of Josephus are largely discredited as later Xian forgeries, and the select few pagan writers that do potentially mention someone that may fit the description of Jesus do not necessarily mention him by name (none of these were contemporary).<br /><br />"Matthew 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves."<br /><br />In John 2:15, he does fashion a whip in order to drive the people out.<br /><br />"What they were doing was illegal according to Jewish law, yet they overlooked the law for gain. It was also against Jewish law that they had put religion ahead of God."<br /><br />And that gives one the right to fashion a weapon and attack people with it?<br /><br />"The last point is that Jesus showed anger. The Bible simply say be angry and do not sin. This is an example of that."<br /><br />Matt 5:22 also says that anyone who is angry is subject to judgement and compares being angry to murder. But, I think attacking people with a weapon goes beyond simply being angry. I might be angry at someone who cuts me off in traffic. If I get out of the car and come at them with a weapon, then I've crossed the line for sure.<br /><br />"I'd like some verses on these points."<br /><br />Matt 15:21-28 for the woman, and Matt 5:22 for his comparison of anger to murder. The second is not explicity, I admit, but implicit and follows the general flow, which continues with his comparison of looking at a woman with lust to adultery.<br /><br />"I think you are talking about the woman taken in adultery or the woman at the well."<br /><br />I wasn't talking about those. The woman taken in adultery is a late addition anyway.<br /><br />"The morality of Jesus is love, accountability and discipline."<br /><br />I disagree, but that's quite another rabbit hole that we would be going down...unless you'd like to proceed. I'd rather focus on what we are already discussing.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-18978069295971413392010-03-13T20:35:15.239-05:002010-03-13T20:35:15.239-05:00@GCT - OK a few points.
-1 What is the abject lac...@GCT - OK a few points.<br /><br />-1 What is the abject lack of evidence for Jesus having been a real person. It was recorded by the apostles, and also by Josephas. The Bible has many historical passages (which there was a link to) that were found to be similar, and authentic in many different manuscripts. <br /><br />Didn't Jesus sin when he fashioned a whip and physically ran people out of the temple with it? Even if he didn't beat anyone with the whip, didn't he at least threaten them - something that we would call "assault?"<br /><br />Jesus did not sin. The passage says this:<br /><br />Matthew 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.<br /><br />The word whip is not used in the Greek. A couple of points. What they were doing was illegal according to Jewish law, yet they overlooked the law for gain. It was also against Jewish law that they had put religion ahead of God. The last point is that Jesus showed anger. The Bible simply say be angry and do not sin. This is an example of that.<br /><br />I could point to other instances, like his treatment of a woman that comes looking for assistance where he basically makes her say she is a dog, or his ideas of morality where he equates anger to murder, but I think the example I brought up is the clearest cut case.<br /><br />I'd like some verses on these points. I think you are talking about the woman taken in adultery or the woman at the well.<br /><br />The morality of Jesus is love, accountability and discipline.<br /><br />Thanks for commenting.Davidhttp://www.fireandgrace.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-1987389852423955692010-03-12T23:12:42.491-05:002010-03-12T23:12:42.491-05:00David:
"I never close my eyes, I am afraid o...David:<br /><br />"I never close my eyes, I am afraid of getting mugged by a demon."<br /><br />Odd that you should mention that. I though I was the only one.photogrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149737419546300220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-63875558868499295352010-03-12T15:50:33.088-05:002010-03-12T15:50:33.088-05:00@Nic at Night - This blog was about all the stuff ...@Nic at Night - This blog was about all the stuff that we need to embrace - and how hard it is. Dead people living, the Man/God etc.<br /><br />I have taken a few swings at dorky religious folks that are less than spirit powered. Check out the tag "Stupidity." Or "Top 10" where I blast stupid Christian for being, well, stupid.<br /><br />I never close my eyes, I am afraid of getting mugged by a demon.<br /><br />@GTC - Haven't forgotten you - just had to actually work today - on a Friday, no less.Davidhttp://www.fireandgrace.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-35677486654724319662010-03-12T10:21:39.414-05:002010-03-12T10:21:39.414-05:00Amen David! I'll be honest lately I just have...Amen David! I'll be honest lately I just haven't been wanting to go to church. People can't even talk because they're so busy doing "God's work" like doing a ministry or teaching a class or choir practice.<br /><br />And I've really not been wanting to tithe lately. I'm stressed out about the other baby who'll be here in 3 weeks and seriously child care cost is a female dog.<br /><br />What's up with altar calls? I mean seriously, I think it's all for show. And what's up with pastors deceiving people by having our eyes closed and saying, "I see that hand, God bless I see that hand." I mean, are our techniques not working so we artificially have people come forward because "others are doing it?"Charlie Changhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15893038509880330735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-58703776232623765472010-03-12T09:32:06.884-05:002010-03-12T09:32:06.884-05:00Enjoyed the totally honest and real dialogue.. Ver...Enjoyed the totally honest and real dialogue.. Very relatable to any "honest with themself" Christian! Thanks.2SenseWorthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-8157118358736194662010-03-12T09:28:06.553-05:002010-03-12T09:28:06.553-05:00@GCT - will reply once I get past my code review t...@GCT - will reply once I get past my code review this morning.<br /><br />@Matt - Thanks for reading. I was so frustrated trying to come up with something of value, and I have a running debate with a couple of nice folks that want to more about what I think.<br /><br />@Danny - I think you came over to ask me to stop commenting on your blog. ;o) Which is a great one.<br /><br />I do feel bad that a Cirque du Soleil guy like you would be suckered by a Barnum & Bailey guy like me.Davidhttp://www.fireandgrace.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-52990129570332411432010-03-12T09:01:48.805-05:002010-03-12T09:01:48.805-05:00Like Matt, I got suckered by the title...and wasn&...Like Matt, I got suckered by the title...and wasn't disappointed ;)<br /><br />You said, "I was thinking that going from darkness to light, getting saved, or coming to faith - whatever you call it - is like sex, you'll know if it happens. Maybe that's not the best analogy, but what other experience is intimate and as life changing?"<br /><br />I think it may be the best analogy we have, don't sell it short.<br /><br />Good stuff man.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03588318988300419482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-59947647341684467052010-03-12T08:22:07.786-05:002010-03-12T08:22:07.786-05:00David, great post! I had to come over when I saw ...David, great post! I had to come over when I saw the title. Christianity is a weird institution at it's best, and a downright unbelievable institution at its worstAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-87829307731743926352010-03-12T08:06:25.302-05:002010-03-12T08:06:25.302-05:00David,
I could comment on a lot (especially the pa...David,<br />I could comment on a lot (especially the part about Jesus being historical and the abject lack of evidence for it, as well as the resurrection), since there's a lot to this post, but I'll refrain (and BTW I thought it was well put together). Instead, I'd like to ask a single question:<br /><br />Didn't Jesus sin when he fashioned a whip and physically ran people out of the temple with it? Even if he didn't beat anyone with the whip, didn't he at least threaten them - something that we would call "assault?"<br /><br />I could point to other instances, like his treatment of a woman that comes looking for assistance where he basically makes her say she is a dog, or his ideas of morality where he equates anger to murder, but I think the example I brought up is the clearest cut case.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-75879245190733374862010-03-11T20:27:00.699-05:002010-03-11T20:27:00.699-05:00@Larry - I never wanted to be moral. I wanted more...@Larry - I never wanted to be moral. I wanted more of everything. Heck, I was addicted to more!<br /><br />@Tracy - yeah, it is sobering when folks comment and they don't believe and you want them too. When you how much different life inside can be and it comes down to the truth buried in a few verses. It is maddening to try to find the one that will cause repentance from the listener. And then you reflect on your own path, how you've missed it, and how fragile it seems all of sudden. And then you breath in the spirit of the living God - and it all makes sense again!<br /><br />Thanks for commenting.Davidhttp://www.fireandgrace.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-53346339916895023372010-03-11T20:08:02.758-05:002010-03-11T20:08:02.758-05:00This post captivated me from just the title - I to...This post captivated me from just the title - I totally relate to some of the very same things you struggle with in being a ChristianTracyhttp://abundantliving-tracy.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2257114463060999037.post-73780601879437947562010-03-11T18:28:43.136-05:002010-03-11T18:28:43.136-05:00David:
I really don't have that much in Chris...David:<br /><br />I really don't have that much in Christianity that makes my life difficult as I have always felt it was my duty to lead a moral life, stay out of trouble, and provide for my family even when I was not a believer.<br /><br /> Since then though, I have found difficulty warming up to some self professed Christians seeing them saying one thing and then doing the opposite.<br /><br />I would have to say it is people in general that I am skeptical of. Perhaps it is my life's experiences with people that restrains me from opening up to them.photogrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149737419546300220noreply@blogger.com